This is the mail archive of the cygwin-xfree@cygwin.com mailing list for the Cygwin XFree86 project.


Index Nav: [Date Index] [Subject Index] [Author Index] [Thread Index]
Message Nav: [Date Prev] [Date Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next]
Other format: [Raw text]

Re: Why Xming.exe?


On Thu, Nov 11, 2004 at 08:49:48AM +0100, ?yvind Harboe wrote:
>First of all: I love CygWin! 
>
>If I didn't, I would not passionatly dive into this discussion. :-)
>
>Here are a couple of reasons why I think a discussion of 
>Xming.exe can bring something to CygWin.
>
>Basically, I believe that the Xming.exe would never have seen the
>light of day if if all was well with CygWin. It is a cry for help.

Not a rationale for discussing MinGW projects on a Cygwin list.
The MinGW project came about due to the Cygwin project.  The MinGW
project has a separate mailing list.  And, they created the mailing
list themselves without offering specious arguments about why they
should be able to keep discussing things in the Cygwin list.

>Also, I believe the next useful solution to the set of problems that
>CygWin is facing is non-local. I think it is in the interest of CygWin
>to allow discussions and hacks to wander somewhat freely. 

This is just more of "I think it would be nice".

>Some issues that CygWin could address to make Xming.exe moot:
>
>- Side-by-side install.  There is a need for e.g.  SSH + and an X
>server in a single package that is easily deployable.

This is not a goal of Cygwin any more than it is a goal of Red Hat Linux
to be easily deployable with SuSE.  This has come up repeatedly in the
main list.  Maybe you should do some research before you start suggesting
things that have already been beaten to death.

It is not that hard to install a Cygwin/X/SSH package into an existing
cygwin installation.  It just requires care.  The problem is that no
one wants to take the time to do things carefully.  Everyone wants to
use a simple tar ball or a simple copy to the main disk and have things
work.  That is not going to work but having an installer which first
checked the cygwin version and the cygwin layout and then installed things
into that would work.  The installer could optionally install the cygwin
DLL if required.

The problem is that it seems that every single person who whines about
needing two versions of cygwin on the same computer lacks either the
ability or the concentration to be able to figure out how to do this.
Given that no one has stepped forward to provide tools for doing this,
I am left to conclude that this basically boils down to "I know how
to use a baseball bat.  I'm trying to trim my hedges.  The baseball
bat is not working right.  Please, Mr. Baseball Bat Manufacturer take
fix your bat!"

However, if it was an issue, then the solution would not be to develop
a whole bunch of packages using MinGW.  The solution would be to modify
*cygwin*.

>E.g.  its more than once that CygWin updates have broken
>http://sources.redhat.com/ecos tools, without bringing any new features
>or improvements for those tools.

1) This has absolutely nothing to do with X.

2) If Cygwin is an important platform for eCos, then the solution to this
   problem is for eCos people to be involved in the cygwin mailing list.

>- Side-by-side means CygWin next to CygWin, and CygWin next to any Windows
>program.

Cygwin already exists fine next to any Windows program.  Cygwin next to
Cygwin has nothing to do with a MinGW version of X.

>- It is currently impossible for the casual programmer to debug CygWin
>X using GDB. See http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-xfree/2004-10/msg00159.html

This has nothing to do with discussing a MinGW version of X.  If something
needs to be fixed in cygwin or in gdb, you fix cygwin or gdb.  You don't
immediately jump to a new project.

>- CygWin is a pain to install. It takes long to download(many files more than
>size with a broad connection), takes long to install and many things can and do
>go wrong. 

So, should we allow discussion of Xceed here, too?  I assume it's easy to
install.

In any event

>- CygWin messes with Windows environment variables, breaking other programs. 

Cygwin does not mess with windows environment variables.

>- CygWin is broken by other programs using the Windows environment variables.

Examples?

>- CygWin is always in motion.  There is no "CygWin distribution version" 
>like the Linux distributions operate with. There is no way to install
>"a specific old boring CygWin" to run some tools that never change.

Wow, your logic really escapes me.  You haven't provided one fact-based
rationale for why it would be advantageous to discuss a non-cygwin
program in a cygwin mailing list.  All of your arguments are the
"grasping at straws" variety.

Your arguments boil down to:

1) Xming would not have come about if not for Cygwin.

1) You don't really understand how cygwin works.
   (cygwin messes with Windows environment variables)

2) Cygwin is hard to install.

3) You can't put as many versions of Cygwin on the computer as you
   want to (without understanding what you are doing).

4) When there is a Cygwin update it can break programs.

5) You think it is a good idea.

Ranting about Cygwin problems is not a rationale for allowing discussion
of non-cygwin solutions.  If Cygwin has problems you FIX THE PROBLEMS.
You don't move on to some other system.  Or, actually, YOU may do that.
You just don't do it here.

If you decide that Interix is the solution to all of your cygwin
frustrations, you don't hijack the cygwin lists and start discussing
Interix there.  You move to an Interix-specific forum.

So, sorry, request denied.

I forgot about this last night but I will point out that there is a
dormant mailing list on sourceware.org which was actually set up for the
purpose of discussing a non-cygwin version of X -- win32-x11.  I set
this up the last time someone decided to play around with a non-cygwin
version of X.  Feel free to move Xming discussions there.

Alexander, if you want to resurrect that project and use sourceware.org
to host it, let me know (in private email).

cgf


Index Nav: [Date Index] [Subject Index] [Author Index] [Thread Index]
Message Nav: [Date Prev] [Date Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next]