RE: [xsl] Rant

["Joshua Allen" <joshuaa at microsoft dot com>]

Did you say that you want to use Frontpage Server Extensions on Linux?
Then check out (http://linuxberg.ii.net/conhtml/preview/8903.html) :-)

Seriously, though, I can sympathize with the issues around FPSE.  Having
used Frontpage since 1.0 version, I still have not ever approached
enlightenment about exactly what the FPSE are doing and what all of
those _vti files do.  When it is so easy to set up a batch file that
publishes a site via FTP, one wonders how the publishing process could
have been made so complicated and fragile in the case of FPSE.  One
thing I can say in defense of FPSE is that these are meant for use by
"real" users -- the sort who don't write their own XSLTs or FTP scripts.
FPSE works quite well for letting a non-technical user publish a
website, so long as you have your web hosting provider re-install the
extensions whenever they break (speaking from experience here).  Well, I
think of it sort of like ActiveSync -- it is amazing how breakable
something so seemingly simple as file synchronization becomes as soon as
you try to make it totally automagic.

The other thing to mention though is that it is possible to live a life
free of FPSE by doing the same thing you would do with any Unix service
-- that is, use FTP or WebDAV to publish your site.  When you do this,
at least you know what is going on.  Also I have to point out that IIS
w/ Perl (e.g. www.activestate.com) is pretty much identical to Apache w/
Perl.  Just because all of the other fat features are there doesn't mean
you have to use them (or even install them, in many cases).

Anyway, I apologize for the pain you guys have with FPSE and apologize
for continuing off-topic thread -- people can continue the thread w/me
off-line if you want and I could maybe share other ideas about how I've
avoided FPSE hell in the past..

  

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kurt Cagle [mailto:cagle@olywa.net]
> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 8:42 PM
> To: xsl-list@lists.mulberrytech.com
> Subject: Re: [xsl] Rant
> 
> Chris,
> 
> FP extensions are one of those lovely features of MS products that I
> routinely avoid when setting up new webs on IIS systems, and actually
went
> to using a development strategy built around Dreamweaver and HomeSite
> because I got so fed up with having to deal with the damned FP
components
> that VI uses by default. It makes debugging a little harder, but as
most
> of
> what I do is deal with XSLT code where the VI debugger doesn't help me
> much
> anyway, its no great hardship. (Of course, I'm also migrating to Linux
> because I've reached the point where I'd rather work in Apache and
Perl
> that
> are small and lightweight rather than have the massive infrastructure
that
> IIS imposes on you  ... or worse the .NET infrastructure that's
coming).
> Anyway, I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who's had problems
with
> the interactions between VSS/VI and FP.
> 
> -- Kurt
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Bayes" <Chris@Bayes.co.uk>
> To: <xsl-list@lists.mulberrytech.com>
> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 4:56 PM
> Subject: [xsl] Rant
> 
> 
> > Hi All,
> > I haven't used Microsoft FP extensions for a while. In fact I
haven't
> used
> > the Publishing/Deployment tools for over 4 years (they didn't work
back
> > then). They are running on my local network and I use SourceSafe
> checking
> in
> > things as I change them etc.
> >
> > As you might be aware my host got liquidated recently and I had to
> redeploy
> > my web. Initially I just FTP'd my local master web up to my new FP
aware
> > site (6 hours). This got me back up and running. I thought I'd
connect
> with
> > FP/VI to my new FPe aware host and see how it worked. My first
problem
> was
> > that I had FTP'd all the _vti_* files up there too and when I
connected
> my
> > host site seemed to think that all my files were in SourceSafe. As
my
> host
> > isn't running SourceSafe I couldn't do anything. Hey no problem
that's
> > reasonable I'd transfered all the config files which were only
relevant
> to
> > my local web/network up to my host's server. Solution: delete all
_vti_*
> > files and then re-apply the server extensions. All worked fine.
> >
> > I'd like to get my local web *exactly* in sync with my host/remote
site
> to
> > save any problems in the future.
> >
> > The first problem is that the deployment/publishing idiot can't
> understand
> > that pages on the host/remote site newer than any local pages don't
need
> to
> > be uploaded. Duh!!
> >
> > Ok no worries. I'll just upload everything so that everything is in
sync.
> > (another 6 hours)
> >
> > The next problem is that *occasionally* I had created some files in
my
> web
> > with notepad or photoshop and FP/VI weren't aware of them. No
worries.
> If
> > they don't go they don't go but all i have to do is add them to
> SourceSafe
> > and they will go next time. Oh No!!! VI/SourceSafe sees them and
> craps-out.
> > Then there were times when VI wasn't being co-operative so I changed
the
> > protection on a file from read-only so I could edit in notepad.
> > VI/SourceSafe sees that it is not read-only on disk so craps-out.
> > Then there are other situations where VI just doesn't like the look
of a
> > file which is in SourceSafe and checked in and is read-only on disk.
The
> > only way around this is to delete the file from VI and re-add the
damn
> > thing.
> >
> > This might not seem like a big problem but when the Deployment
system
> takes
> > 1.5 hours to run before it tells you that there is a small problem
that
> you
> > aren't worried about and then craps-out it is a pain. HEY out of
5000
> files
> > 50 unusual ones aren't a big deal but that means running the damn
thing
> from
> > the beginning for 2 days just to get your web in sync.
> >
> > I now know why NO big sites let FP extensions/developers anywhere
near
> their
> > live site.
> >
> > And now to the point of the rant and where the list might be getting
> > interested. It takes about 3 minutes to run dirTOxml on my site. I
have
> a
> > perl script that will convert _vti_cnf files to xml (add 1 minute)
and
> > SourceSafe is scriptable (add 5 minutes) so can be converted to xml.
> That
> > makes at most 10 minutes to create an xml representation of all
> > dir/SourceSafe/meta data for a 50meg site.
> > Now validate it with schema/relax/schematron/plain old XSLT (5
minutes)
> and
> > you get a report of all the files that will cause problems with the
> Idiot
> > Deployment Wizard. Compare that with 1.5 hours *bang* problems with
> another
> > file!!! Fix it and start again!!! Over and Over again till it
works!!!
> And
> > that's without actually uploading anything (another 6 hours)
> >
> > If anyone is using FP or VI and wants to work on this or if
Microsoft is
> > listening then just let me know!!!!!!!!!
> >
> > Ciao Chris
> >
> > XML/XSL Portal
> > http://www.bayes.co.uk/xml
> >
> >
> >  XSL-List info and archive:
http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list
> >
> 
> 
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